Tying up
boats at night
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christina King"
I also tie up my boat with
two separate tie ups in the Grand - trickier than most rivers because of
the dam release fluctuations. I don't like tying all the boats together
because then every couple of hours in the night I'm stuck either hauling
everyone’s lines in or out. That is not fun and takes way too much time.
Two lines makes for more security, especially when I sleep on my boat. In
addition, I use a mushroom lead anchor when parked in sandy eddies to
lengthen my tie out when I know the water is going to drop during the
night and it holds me steadier out in the eddy- less waking up and letting
line out for me during the night. I don't use the anchor when I know
there are rocks or it will just get stuck (maybe forever).
Thanks,
Christina
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Martin"
Sure to be labeled a fool
for saying this - I don't like tying my boat in a cluster pro/NPS style.
I refuse - boats rub together all night, damaging oars, tubes, crushing
drag bags and tubes - making noises and as Christina points out getting
all stuck on the beach together. The park service and guides don't have
to maintain their own gear or buy it, therefore boat damage is not a
consideration.
Additionally I don't like having people using my boat for a stepping
stone to theirs or others. tying them together promotes intra-boat foot
traffic.
Running a heavy boat, I'm loathe to want to get it off sand bars. I sleep
on my boat as well and I am sensitive to tilting, like rolling into the
foot well, so I wake up and readjust my boat and any others that appear
to be getting stuck - IF - they've tied a knot that can be easily slid
to allow adjustment. Lot's of folks insist on tying super knots capable
of mooring the Queen Mary in a hurricane. Won't futz with those at
midnight. A triple half hitch will do the job and allow for very easy
adjustment.
I'll toss this in to mix as well - I don't much like the shortie ropes
proved by the rental companies. C'mon you guys, put a least a fifty
footer on each boat, what's with those 12' ropes? Invariably all those
boats end up tied to the few who bring a long rope, meaning that the
hapless "long roper" ends up waiting for everyone to untie from him/her
before him/her can leave and also increasing the likelihood of all the
boats penduluming in the night when the water rises (it also rises at
night, surprise!).
Ahhhh yes! One more little simple thing - tie to your boat using the
lowest D ring you can. Lot's of boaters tie their boats to the highest
front D ring they can - which means two things, the tube is being pulled
from the top of the tube by surging, but more importantly, the high
mounted bow lines are somewhat of a safety hazard, especially in the
night, or for folks who have a hard time stepping over high bow lines.
Lot's of boats have a lower mounted d- ring , where the pull is on the
floor, or lower on the tube, and it is much easier to navigate around
ropes that are either on, or close to the ground.
Personal opinions, not rules carved in stone.
Ricardo
----- Original Message
-----
From: "pcarlson15"
I also don't like the tie-em-all-together
method. I tie off to 2 points at night and prefer one close and one far
up in the tammies (for when the big one hits). It only seems to work when
the boats are identical, like commercials.
I guess the theory is they rock less and if one gets loose it doesn’t
float off. But why is it always the guy who doesn't have a long enough
rope who wants to do it? hehe! Plus they always rub together no matter
how much you tighten the straps, so we had to move our spare oars off and
constantly adjust it, ugh. I’m trying to minimize the amount of time I
spend playing with straps and enjoy the canyon. Not increase it. Some
people are rig-a-holics though.
I hated having my pro tied off one trip to an 18' cataraft and 3 14ers,
and after a couple nights I politely declined the offer. It seemed like
it actually concentrated the entire weight and rocking of everyone’s boats
onto one or 2 rafts, mine being one of them!
The truth? You cant handle the truth!
I couldn't easily get to my beer-bag, and people kept walking sand all
over my boat. But mostly the beer bag thing. =)
Phil
----- Original Message
-----
From: "doc thomas"
Hi Folks...just got back
online so am not up to speed(and probably never will be till I get a new
computer that is reliable) BUT I did read my fellow frequent flyer/good
buddy RicardO's excellent remarks about NOT strapping boats together.Many
a night RicardO and I have tied our boats next to each other but NOT to
each other because we both value our equipment and hate hearing boats
rubbing all night. The only time my boat(which I always sleep on)ever got
loose was when some moron untied my line and forgot to retie it...luckily
someone yelled "Doc's loose" and a gal ran out from the groover with her
panties around her ankles and caught my line before I headed into Unkar at
midnight.Thank God for saints like Carol. Ohio is right about our
PH,Tracy,being a psychotic nightmare on a partly organized internet GC
trip a couple years ago... BUT after everyone realized her insanity,the
rest of us all bonded and it still was a pretty good trip.I was especially
happy no one killed her despite her hostile/obnoxious behavior...both
RicardO and I had invited friends along so we made the best of the
situation.I think we were all a little more picky about who we went with
after that.Like most folks,I try to focus on remembering the really great
trips(and there have been dozens) and forget the others that were less
memorable.I've always felt blessed to row the GC as many times as I
have...and especially with good friends like RicardO and others.
----- Original Message -----
From: "driftersmith"
One reason why I prefer to
have ALL the boats tied together at camp: food shopping. If you are in
charge of the food (I am, on about half of my trips) you end up searching
for supplies on more than one boat. If they are not tied together, you
end up making numerous trips to and from shore...in addition to the visits
to the various coolers on different boats...in the process of pulling grub
for dinner, breakfast, and the next day's lunch.
Being in charge of finding all the grub, packing lunch, and putting away
unused stuff is a big enough hassle as it is: additional hassle (running
down the beach to other boats) is not appreciated.
I might mention that not all trips have a single person in charge of the
grub, nor is it always the case that all boats carry coolers, bread boxes,
etc. But on my trips this is the usual arrangement...
In years of having all the boats tied together at camp, I've never seen
any damage result from this practice.
As for boating with lots of strangers...made that mistake on my first
private Grand Canyon back in 1974. It's one thing when you are somewhat
in charge of things and getting paid for it, but altogether different on a
private trip.
Most private trips I've done have had a person or two I didn't know, and
worked out just fine. And on my 2nd GC trip everyone but me knew each
other, and we had a great time. (I provided the sole raft support for five
kayakers and one passenger.)
But when I go, I go to have a good time; working hard and sharing expenses
on disorganized trips with psychotic yahoos doesn't qualify...
- Drifter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Marley"
> In years of having all the boats tied together at camp, I've never >
seen any damage result from this practice.
I agree and even more important I don't recall anyone ever complaining
about wear on their raft. You do have to make sure the oars aren't rubbing
on something and the rafts have been known to engage in some mating
rituals that give off the occasional squeak or whatever. I could see where
those noises might be a problem if one was sleeping on the rafts. All tied
together one would also lose privacy if several folks were sleeping on
their rafts. I think that comes into the equation more than the wear and
tear element. I've been on very few trips with raft sleepers so that has
never been a problem for us.
> But when I go, I go to have a good time; working hard and sharing
expenses on disorganized trips with psychotic yahoos doesn't qualify...
I agree with this also. You just never know about folks you haven't
traveled with before and a high percentage of the time you will be
surprised. People talk a good line when they want to get on a trip but any
similarity to their pre-trip talk and their eventual performance can be
purely coincidental. Always better to travel with others who think like
you do about work sharing, launch times, safety concerns, when to find
camp, obeying NPS regulations, and all of the important stuff that makes
for a great trip.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Martin"
I think both points of view
on this have validity.
Wear and tear - it happens, for instance boat tied to mine with bottom of
the wooden oars with fiberglass rope for protection. rope ground all
night into my oars, rubbing away a fair amount of wood. Bad. Ditto for
rough items rubbing on rubber tubes. Straps tied to oar towers, boats
rising and falling, lifting oars, pulling out cotter keys, etc. Not my
preference.
On a lot of my trips, to answer Drifters comment, boatmen who hang on
boats are expected to be on duty for food shoppers, that meaning they
know what's on their boat, where and supply it cheerfully.
Bob's right about sleeping on the boat. I like it a lot, it's easy,
clean, etc - camps right there - but when all the boats are tied up and
lot's of folks now sleep on their boats, it's like being in a boat
ghetto with totally no privacy. Often I move my boat away after the
chores are done. Plus - I snore horribly, don't want to torture
anyone.
Ricardo
----- Original Message -----
From: "ronradzieta"
Does the NPS recommend tying up? I've not been on the river since last
July and they were not mentioning it then?
Tying up boats is a touchy subject and should be left to an individual's
choice. But, since I'm the rig-a-holic with the 18' cat that Phil's
taking about I'd better speak up since there is more to the story.
It was a Cataract Canyon trip in May. We laid over to permit hiking up to
the Maze on a huge beach river-right below Spanish bottom. The beach had
a very(!) "large" violent surf that swept sideways across the beach. As
long as the lines kept the nose of the boats tight to the beach, the
tightly cammed together boats were nice and stable and fairly "quiet".
But, being a May trip, the water kept rising and rising and rising(at
about an inch or more an hour, i.e. 4" to 10" up the beach) for the two
nights we spent there. By the time we left our kitchen area was beginning
to be consumed by the surf. Anyway, had the boats not been cammed tightly
together, on an hourly basis, they'd all been swept sideways to the beach
bashing mercilessly into each other. As it was, once the boats were
tightly cammed together, the frequent shore line tightening that had to be
done due to the rising water could be done by one person for all the boats
so that people who wanted to "enjoy the canyon" could do so.
The other boat that had the weight of the rocking concentrated on it was
my 18ft Cat (Aire Leopard). I parked it at the end that received the
breaking waves. I put it there to be a breakwater because the 14'ers were
being beaten to hell.
I must admit, maintenance wise, it was a relief to get off that beach
because the next two nights to the takeout were nice quiet eddy beaches
where people could politely decline tying up and could do as they please.
But since tying up can be such a strongly held opinion, I will say I
strongly believe in tying up boats. In my opinion, the reasons to do it
fall into the realm of communal and safety, the reasons not to do it tend
to fall into the realm of personal. If not done properly, there can be
some wear and tear. So do it properly. I stated my opinion so strongly
because it is a topic that deserves attention. I'd just hate for it to
become something not to do just because the NPS recommends it.
BTW, I always sleep on my boat so I understand the privacy issue if
everyone sleeps on their boat. It can get crowded out there.
------------
From Pb
Hey Ron!
Im not against group safety, and that was a very harsh dock for our boats.
Mercilessly only begins to describe the way that surf was pounding our
boats into the shore! And I did notice that yours was the other boat
taking most of the beating. Your bigger tubes made it so the other boats
were actually being lifted up putting more weight onto your boat, and
mine.
I think that it would work better with identical boats. I think that was
a particularily harsh surf, and with the water rising there was no getting
around the constant bowline adjusting. I have often leashed boats loosely
together in case one got loose, but that was my first experience with
tightly camming them all together like that. It probably wasnt the best
conditions, with 3 different lengths of rafts and catarafts and that
horrid surf, for me to properly appreciate the benefits.
Ive rafted a long time on many different rivers and that was the first
time I had ever seen that method. The way I was trained the boatman took
care of his own boat. Each boat was tied off seperately and I cannot
remember ever losing one. We always left them floating as much as
possible.
Nowdays you can see a "boatman" who ties his bowline only to the plastic
carry handle and then only uses 1 line to a tamarisk. With "boatman" like
that camming the boats together is a requirement I suppose. Maybe its a
sign of the times, short bowlines and sat-phones.
I didnt mean to dis you with the rig-a-holic comment, it was more of a
compliment. I was very impressed with your rigging abilities and your
skill and knowledge during the rescue.
Was just saying that I try to minimize my time playing with straps
whenever possible. And being that my first experience with that method
was in those conditions and needed constant adjustment, my skepticism was
full throttle.
And Im still not convinced theres any more safety inherent with that
method. If everyone properly ties off their raft, does their bowline
adjutsments, and is a true "boatman", the merits of the barge method begin
to wane.
One could say that, in the event of a flash flood, a well tied single
boat might fare better and remain attached to shore, whereas a large barge
with each boat not properly tied off to shore might break loose and you
loose everything. If each boat was tied off singly, you might still have
half your boats, or all of them. A single boat pulls only on its 2
ropes. A barge might shift in the night and end up putting all the
weight/drag of 5 boats onto those 2 same ropes.
So theres the putting your eggs all in one basket thing.
And there is the "everyones boat effecting mine" thing. I am perfectly
comfortable and confident in my own boat tying up safety. I have run many
thousands of miles without ever needing to use that method. Suddenly
theres a "need" for everyone else to tie off to me and my boat is taking
increased wear and risk of puncture for what some might call a "percieved"
safety issue.
So I believe that its a personal choice, just like pins and clips vs
oarlocks. Both ways have their merits and their disadvantages. Both
ways work. One way might work better under certain conditions, one way
might work better in a particular eddy.
Having that been my first experience with it, in those terrible
conditions, I may be a bit underinformed and prematurely biased.
Pb
From: "ronradzieta" <ronradzieta@mindspring.com>
Hey Phil, Good to talk to
you. I just wish we were discussing this on a beach somewhere watching a
setting set sun with beer in hand. I hope you are having a great start of
season.
You are right, that wasn't the best place to realize the merits of camming
up. In hindsight we should have been at the other end of the beach, but
the commercials were there when we arrived. We should have moved our
boats down there after they left but then our beer bags would have been a
quarter mile away and we'd been bogarting the beach. OR we should have
beached the boats which is what I've had to do in the Sea of Cortez when
motoring my cata-panga, but, it is hard to convinience a group of people
after they've had a few beers to carry a few tons of boats up onto a dry
beach.
In my opinion, preventing boats from floating away is an important but
relatively minor reason to cam up boats. Below are just a few of other
reasons.
1. Camming boats together stabilizes all of the boats into a barge making
getting on-and-off and moving gear between them or onto the shore much
easier and safer. I'd bet there is not an experienced boatman on this
forum who wouldn't agree that where the boat meets the beach is where a
high percentage of human error occurs. Barged up boats don't recoil from
steps, they don't twist and turn and they don't bounce up and down.
2. Tightly and properly cammed together boats don't need as many shore
lines. By using 1.5" cams (not 1" cams) between the front and rear of
frames (not D-rings) you don't need a rat's nest of taught and slack lines
going across the beach. I even heard people advocating two tie-offs per
boat. My opinion and just my opinion, ridiculous and dangerous, verging
on selfish and foolish. It seems like almost in every camp I see someone
stumble because of rigging. I just shrug at the thoughtlessness when a
boatman runs his taught line through the kitchen or across the shitter
trail. I advocate thinking as a group. A "proper" barge only needs
taught anchors on the end boats and one in the middle. I put ascenders on
these lines and pull in and let out boats as tide requires. In some
situations its best to run a line through the backs of the boats to anchor
points up and down the beach. IF during the monsoon a big one threatens
then be smart and rig more lines at night.
3. Then there's the "Here, catch" situation that results in watching
something of value disappear into the murky water between boats. That
doesn't happen when boats are cammed together. Either you hand something
to someone or the something lands caught between boats. And, guess where
your pillow goes if you forget to tie it off.
4. On beaches and shoals with light to mild surf the rocking action of a
barge is substantially less than individual boats. Don't believe it, try
it. This makes it much easier to sleep on boats and can cut down on
chaffing against rocks or sand.
5. Tightly cammed boats stay square to the beach and don't turn sideways
as the tide comes in.
6. IF you let out enough line when going to bed a barge will tend to rock
itself backward preventing beaching. If you are at a stranding beach like
South Canyon then drop a duffle bag of rock and anchor out from shore.BTW,
a duffle bag is lighter than carrying a mushroom anchor.
7. Frequently when barged up a partner and I will have the ascenders
situation so that all we have to do is rollover in the middle of the night
and we can let line out for all of the boats to prevent them from beaching
or snug them up to the bank if the tide is rising. I thought it was very
interesting that people didn't want there boats to beach but didn't care
that with a little more forethought that none of the boats have to beach.
If done right, one person can get up to nug the boats out in the middle of
the night or while everyone is on a side hike. IF done right, it doesn't
have to be the same person all night.
8. Cammed up boats add to a community spirit beginning with the tying up
process and continuing with the ease it provides at happy hour to pass lit
and liquid consumables and munchies between boats. Ya, hooooo, a boat
party at happy hour!!! If your boat tends to be the party boat that's an
occasion when sand tracks all over your boat. For some people, that may be
why you notice on day 12 that your beer is almost gone. Try camming up
party people boats side by side so that people can enjoy their own seats
and enjoy their own consumables. Phil, you're so much fun that people
love to party with you on your big PRO and more the merrier. I seem to
recall on that trip several instances of boats floating down the river
with no one on them so that they could enjoy your company.
Granted, camming up doesn't work in all situations. On some rivers it's
just doesn't work at all. But in my opinion, on the Grand, at nearly
every camp, it is safer and more better. I'm sure many people can cite
this or that event happened when cammed up as to why not to do it, all I
can say is you should have put a little more thought into the process and
done it right. Not to say that it is not a learning experience because
every time I do it, even after at least a hundred times, I think that I
can do it better next time. But there'in are the joys for a "rig-o-holic".
But remember, this is just my opinion. Whelp, having said all that; I'm
ready to get pummeled.
----- Original Message -----
From: "ronradzieta"
9. Barged boats don't bump
into each other when you are trying to sleep. Nothing worse than an
intermittent bump to screw up trying to fall asleep.
BTW, squeaks usually mean you didn't get the cams tight enough or far
enough apart.
In other words, you did it wrong.
10. Barging up takes up
less beach. IF everyone wants to park near the kitchen area (access to
drag bag or whatever) then you might as well barge up and
let everyone be close. At some camps you almost have to barge up, e.g.
Kanab, Tepeats, etc.
11. Concerning drag bags, usually, they are in harms way no matter
what. A great trick I was turned onto is to keep a shore side cooler or
5 gal buckets full of cold river water and beverages, much more convenient
and safer especially if you are cycling for cans of beer and after 4 and
more cycles. OR, you can unclip your drag bag and carry it out to the
boats on the ends or between the tubes of a cat. If
someone objects to clipping a drag bag onto their boat at camp then all I
can say is that they are someone you probably wished wasn't on the trip
anyway. You can usually recognize this type of trip mate pretty early on
and know not to do it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wills"
I went on a GC trip with Ron
last July and was introduced to camming boats together. We may have been
fortunate not to have a beach with major surf but I and other boaters were
impressed with camming the boats together. It certainly made management of
the tides a lot easier. It also decrease the space required on the beach.
It also prevented boats rubbing on rocks when the tide rose during the
night and having individually tied boats then rubbing against each other.
I will certainly continue to advocate the practice in the future.
John -
---- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Marley"
Good article Ron.
I think you didn't miss a one of the reasons we have been barging boats
together for 25 years and will continue to do so. I especially like the
line on either end and a sand stake down low in the middle
for boat line reduction and a boat party at each camp does bring folks
together as well as figuring how best to cam the rafts all up without all
the gear destruction people seem so concerned about.
----- Original Message
-----
From: "tubestand"
I am in the camstrap camp
myself. Have never seen a problem with chafing and peace of mind is a big
one. I had an experience many years ago on a solo trip where I didn't tie
in well enough. Being out
in the middle of nowhere with no boat in sight is a humbling experience.
I'm interested in what knot gives you the most peace of mind for the best
night's sleep. It would be interesting to see compare what
people think.
Steve Conti
----- Original Message -----
From: <Unkardelta@aol.com>
In a message dated 4/17/2007 3:32:07 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
contit writes:
I tie a taut line hitch to something solid to make it easy to let line
out or take it in during the night without untying the knot and then take
the free end of the line and tie it to something higher up with a
bowline.
Bob Woodward
----- Original Message -----
From: "Earl Perry"
When I tie to a flexible
point like a tamarisk stem, I put two or three loops tight around the base
of the trunk then do a bowline quite close to the stem with a couple of
half hitches to secure it. I've seen four
problems:
1) the imaginary
tier. The rope is tossed up the bank into the thicket for an elf to tie
it. If the elf is on strike, woe.
2) A big, loose loop around a tree-trunk or worse, a group of
shrubs, tied with any knot. The loop slips over the top: woe.
3) Stake failure. Tying to a tree or shrub just in from the edge
of a collapsing bank, tying to a sand stake that is gradually tugged out,
tying to a big driftlog near the water: woe.
4) Tying to very sharp rocks, or putting the boats up against
razor-rocks without padding them.
----- Original Message -----
From: "edward watters"
On the bow-line I will tie a
figure 8 on a bight. It takes up a fair amount of line, so 50' is a
minimum lenght of bow-line to take with you on any river. (I also use 1/2
Bluewater static floating line bow and stern so to run it through some
eyes on frame to right an upside down boat). The running end is run
through a sand stake or other appropiate anchor and then run through the
eye made in the figure 8. I make a "quick pull half-hitch", meaning a
half hitch run through, leaving an eye that is quickly released by pulling
the running end which is locked by a half hitch around the eye, so it
doesn't come loose accidently.
That provides close to a 2:1 advantage to pull the boat in. I only have
to undo the lock over the eye, pull the running end, to let line out. It
sounds much more complicated than it is. I find I do it better in the
dark when not watching, than I do when I see and have to think about it.
(But I also used to pack horses / mules / Burros and threw diamond hitches
regularly, using long lengths of rope, keeping knots and eyes together
without having to run the entire line through an eye).
There are some places I will use a stern line or back anchor. On some
beaches I'll use a light line, 5mm or so, cammed or anchored up-flow to
keep the bow somewhat perpendicular to the beach. On others, I will use
an anchor, made from a 5 gal plastic bucket filled with a few rocks. It
needs to be dropped a ways out to be effective. It needs to be dropped so
that the angle is at least 30 degrees from perpendicular. The smaller the
angle, the more rocks needed.
On GC trips since the advent of self bailers and Catarafts, buckets are a
valuable commodity on the river. Settle water for dishes, coffee, boiled
food, carry items for shopping, seats, there all are sorts of uses for
buckets that you won't imagine, (besides a pee bucket and handwash
stations, fair quantity needed just for those purposes). Get rid of the
metal wire bale on that bucket.
Replace it with 5 - 8 mm rope. Run it through the holes the wire bale
ran. Use a figure 8 as a stopper, join both ends with a 3 - 4 turn
"fisherman's bend", to make a much more comfortable handle.
Well, I realize what I have written doesn't make much sense to folks that
aren't used to using line, and some that do, will have better
alternatives. I like rope. To me it is probably a better tool than a
water container to custain life. I worked as a scaler on a dam(n) project
quite some time ago, later working as a rigger on high rise construction
projects, so I am a bit prejudiced about rope over water. Then again,
I've been known to make and grow my own rope.
Mud
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Marley"
I use a weird not that
allows me to grab the line any where and take out slack.
Hard to describe but I will try. Make an overhand loop in the line any
where you want to take out slack. Pull the extra line through the loop and
then do a half hitch. When you want to adjust it you undo the half hitch,
pull more line through or let some out and redo the half hitch.
Very easy, very quick. Doesn't look pretty but it works.
Horrible description. Need a picture here. ;>)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Marley"
I think what I was trying to
describe in my earlier message is that "quick pull half-hitch". Very easy
to adjust.
Thanks, I now have a name for it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Marley"
I don't like repeated
crawling into bushes to make adjustments. Just tie the boat once to that
stout tammi or sand stake and then use my adjusting knot mid line as
needed.
----- Original Message -----
From: "edward watters"
I learned a long time ago, it is difficult to describe knot tying. It
takes demonstration and practice. That is the only way such things are
learned. Names mean nothing until some folks agree on a common name. I
learned how to tie a bowline, a decade after folks tried to teach me the
rabbit running around a hole method, I found useless in my apprenticeship
in knots as a cub scout. You've got to have rope or line in front of in
front of you, and see how it works. And then keep working it.
There are a few good knot tying instructions on the web with "dynamic"
instructions, that with practice, an interested party can become a decent
rigger. Throw in a storm, trying to fly a shelter tarp, or take a boat
off a pin, keep it simple, but...
Know what you are doing.
I was unfortunate enough to have some folks attempt to right my boat when
an attempted "water knot" on nylon webbing, failed. My boat requiring
righting was emergency enough. A poorly tied knot, scared the groover
contents out of me when I heard a skull make that particular sound as it
struck against a rock when a poorly tied knot failed. (I didn't tie that
knot, but that doesn't matter much. It was my boat, I'm responsible).
When the water knot failed, somebody trying to help me bashed his head
against a rock. I am fortunate to learn, then and there, his skull is as
thick or thicker than mine, but that sound still haunts me.
It could have certainly ruined the trip as bad or worse than the recent
tragedy in Crystal. Grace of god or whatever you might call it. Knot
failed. Skull thick. Knots demonstrated and practiced afterwards. But it
could have been far too late.
Mud
----- Original Message
-----
From: "Tim Hunter"
I tie off to my anchor point
with a bowline and I have a prussic on my bow line if the water is on the
rise all I have to do is slide the knot up. if I anticapate the water
dropping I leave plenty of slack above the prussic and just let it out
periodically as necessary.
-Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas G Rampton"
I don't have a clue what to
call what I do. But I take lots of rope, tie it from the frame, loop it
around something high that can't move or let the rope slip off, and use a
knot about halfway down to the
boat that I can adjust. I use another rope to tie the boat to something
else too, if possible.
But this is about what everyone's been saying. What's the difference? Not
much!
I get down by the boat and pull real hard, to test whatever I've got it
tied to. Sometimes I wake up and shine my flashlight on my boat, to make
sure it's still there--which it always is.
It helps a lot that I float mostly rivers that don't go up and down on a
daily basis.
----- Original Message -----
From: "J MEIERDIERCK" <meierdierck@sbcglobal.net>
To: <gcpba@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18,
2007 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: [gcpba] Re:
Tying up boats at night
I have tied by main rope in
links that can easily be undone to lengthen the rope. After the rope line
is wrapped around a secure object, I use a caribiner (sp?) to tie the
loose end into the rope. This makes it easily adjustable, just pick a
tighter or looser link along the rope as needed. When securing to a sand
stake I just caribiner to the appropriate link as needed.
I also have a 100 foot 1 inch nylon strap that I have (actually Gordo
Brundle made it for me) attached a seat belt eith a short strap and
caribiner. As much of the long line is used and then the seat belt clamp
is used to attach to the secure object.
Both work very well, and on the just completed GC trip I loaned the seat
belt arrangement to a PRO rental boat.
No knots.
Jay "Gonzo"
----- Original Message
-----
From: "Richard Martin" <rickity@mac.com>
To: <gcpba@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18,
2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [gcpba] Re:
Tying up boats at night
I always tie my boat up.
I hate sand stakes. Bring a long rope - tie boat to obnoxious but somehow
beautiful non-native species.
Save the sand.
Hoo boy - that ought to liven things up.
ricardo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Marley"
OK I'll bite. Why don't you
like sand stakes?
I bring lots of long lines but still find sand stakes to be very useful
when you first get to many of those large sandy beaches in GC. Those
non-native species do make good tie points and it is unlikely
anyone will get excited about us scarring their trunks. They don't have a
lot of protector advocates.
Save the Tammis. ;>)
We need them to tie up.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Martin"
What a sport!
Don't hate them when done as you do - hate them when they are pounded in
close to waters edge - two reasons
a. - people drive them in
close to waters edge, just like using a shovel, then wiggle them out,
breaks off bank - sand falls in, beach gets smaller
b. - very easy to trip over and total toes
c. - promote rope clusters - hate those, of course -
unless I need one to tie too.
----- Original Message -----
From: "ronradzieta"
My taxes are done and again
I'm experiencing the ecstasy and the agony. So, now that I have too much
free time on my hands I'll continue my rant on the pros of camming up.
12. When tying up at camps and feature attractions riparian environmental
degradation can be minimized by camming-up. I can't answer which is more
environmentally sensitive, more damage in a smaller area or less damage in
a larger area. I suspect it is generally the former because mitigation is
easier in smaller areas, e.g. Little Nankoweap camp staircase. I also
suspect that less damage in a larger area is just the time factor away
from being more damage in a larger area, e.g. the meandering trails on the
Nankoweap delta when observed from the granaries. To conclude, when
everyone wants there own beach front property for their boat it spreads
the damage unnecessarily and forces camps to become larger because
possible tent sites are maintained as paths to dispersed boats. Since
waterfront tent
sites are highly valued during the hot summer months it would be nice to
let those access corridors revert to tent sites.
13. I'm reminded by conversations of knot tying of the damage that occurs
when boatmen tie up. While it's arguable whether any damage can be done
to tamies, and what is the best way to inflict that damage; damage (minor
but some) is done to vegetation when tying up. Some of that damage is
done to indigs. Sand stakes are now widely used and they can promote
erosion. Fewer stakes are necessary when concentrating boats into a
smaller area.
14. The process of tying up is unfortunately a process of probing for
snakes and other unfriendlies; fewer tie-offs, fewer probes, fewer
discovered unfriendlies.
15. Concentrating boats as a result of camming-up concentrates assistance
available for the landing, tie-up, unloading and loading processes. In my
opinion, if the concentrating process results in a cluster-"f", the group
can use some coordination. Better to practice coordination at
inconsequential landings than to discover in hindsight that the group
lacks proper coordination, cohesion or a fundamental level of leadership.
16. By concentrating assistance the workload on boatmen is reduced which
promotes group harmony. Most boatman don't like to feel like a slave. In
fact, the feeling usually makes me grumpy. I've noticed that the lazy and
the less experienced are more likely to engage when boats are cammed up,
probably because the experienced are concentrated to give them direction.
17. If you think your boat is getting tracked on then get more organized.
Being the outside boat can cut down on tracking. When unloading, loading
and shopping have land-side and boat-side people, i.e. the boat-side
people have clean feet and stay the barge and landside people never go
onto the barge shuttle gear and food. If mud and sand problems persist
then a group conversation is necessary.
I obviously have strong feeling about camming up. Sorry if this flogged
horse has been dead a long time.
-----Original Message-----
From:
gcpba@yahoogroups.com
I have tied by main rope in links that can easily be undone to lengthen
the rope. After the rope line is wrapped around a secure object, I use a
caribiner (sp?) to tie the loose end into the rope. This makes it easily
adjustable, just pick a tighter or looser link along the rope as needed.
When securing to a sand stake I just caribiner to the appropriate link as
needed.
I also have a 100 foot 1 inch nylon strap that I have (actually Gordo
Brundle made it for me) attached a seat belt eith a short strap and
caribiner. As much of the long line is used and then the seat belt clamp
is used to attach to the secure object.
Both work very well, and on the just completed GC trip I loaned the seat
belt arrangement to a PRO rental boat.
No knots.
Jay "Gonzo"
----- Original Message -----
Lane Coddington <Lane@VOLSOFT.COM>
wrote:
This buckle idea sounds interesting. It might allow those who
are knot-phobic to tie up safely. Can you post a picture of the
arrangement?
Thanks.
Lane Coddington
-----
----- Original Message
-----
From: "J MEIERDIERCK" <meierdierck@sbcglobal.net>
To: <gcpba@yahoogroups.com>
Lane and others:
No picture but hopefully a better explanation. The whole "thing" consists
of two parts. 1) the 2 1/2 inch nylon strapping of about 100 feet,
obtained at a military surplus store. It has a small loop for a caribener
at one end that can be either the boat or the land end. 2) A short length
(about two beet when done, of nylon strap with a caribener at one end and
a saet belt clasp at the other. This caribener goes to the other end,
normally the land end if tying off to a sand stake or other object with
easy access. The seat belt end was also obtained at a military surplus
store. It is an "old fashioned clasp not a "modern" one that has a metal
tip and hole. The nylon strap (part 1) rides through the clasp allowing
you to select or change the length as the water level changes.
With caribeners at both ends you just clip onto a sand stake or loop the
line around the secure object and back onto the line itself - no knots.
It works well for its desired use, however I found that with 100 foot or
so of total length there was always excess line at the joint of parts 1
and 2. This could be avoided by having the excess in the boat bow or in a
mesh stuff sack.
On the trip where this was provided by the TL (2.40 Gordy Brundle) every
boat had one and the tie-off and on went very smoothly for the group. This
last March I brought it for a new rafter on a rental boat and he preferred
it to the 50' rental line.
Hope that helps. Jay "Gonzo"
----- Original Message -----
From: "bulhayne"
One of the biggest problems
of tying to something on the bank with a proper knot is that usually you
are needing to tie a "hitch" in the middle of the rope, not at the end.
Which means to tie a proper half hitch or any other hitch, you must run
all of the excess line around the object being tied to and the free end
worked thru the knot--very difficult to say the least when woking with 20
excess feet, sand, and tammies. Which is why I find the most common knot
tied on the river is what I call the non-half hitches half hitches. It's
the knot where the line is fed as a loop around the object and the loop
is treated as one line and up to a dozen half hitches are tied with the
double line--not exactly any kind of proper knot. If you are like me and
you want to be able to sleep at night knowing your boat is tied using a
proper knot but don’t enjoy feeding your whole bow line thru the tammies
then try this. What I do is feed a loop around the object and pull out as
much as need to clear branches, then I tie a directional figure 8 loop
(could use a simple overhand loop) in the standing part. Then I take the
rope that I pulled in a loop around the object and tie another figure 8
where it meets the other one. Then simply biner them together (with a
locking biner of course). All of the excess rope is still on the same side
as the standing part. The Figure 8 is very easy to untie when making
adjustments. Its called the Kansas City Hitch, or at least that's what I
call it.
Blaine
----- Original Message -----
From: "doc thomas"
I generally don't use a
sandstake because I have had to treat eye injuries caused by flying
aluminum(or steel) slivers from morons pounding the stakes with a metal
hammer...ALWAYS use a hard rubber
hammer if you use a sandstake. To make moving my boat easier at night
and not wanting/having to mess with the knot in the dark(and being lazy),I
have been using two long(12ft) loop straps that I put in the long rope I
use to tie up to something securely like a tree. One of the straps is
pulled tight with a slack loop in the main rope and the other is maxed out
and also tied in line...then I can either pull the boat in or push the
boat out by either pulling/tightening or lengthening/ loosening one of the
loop straps and the main rope remains tied the whole time....I picked this
trick up from a good friend and fellow GC boater, Robert Simpson of
Flagstaff/Cameron.
This of course is similar to
using a prussic but seems simpler and stronger.
----- Original Message -----
From: "ronradzieta"
18. Camming boats improves access to the river for other critical
purposes such as collecting/filtering/settling water, bathing, dish
washing, straining slope water, urinating(especially for women) groover
siting(and sitting), etc. While there may be benefits to forcing some of
these activities from camp, dispersed boats can be a hindrance to these
tasks. First example, I was once scolded by a friend's daughter for
parking at the closest place a women could access the water with privacy.
"Now what I was thinking!?!?!" other than it was the only place left to
park. After I was informed I forced the other boats to bunch up so that I
could move. Second example, on a couple of occasions I've witnessed
boatman getting dissed because dishwater was being strained next to their
boat. Third example, on surprisingly to many occasions groover siting
preferences and boat parking preferences have been in conflict.
19. When everyone is departing from a common area gear such as PFD's are
less likely to be forgotten. And, it is more likely to be noticed that
someone is not wearing a PFD.
20. Since de-camming is usually one of the final acts before leaving a
camp it is the physical acknowledgement that we are done with our group
chores, our planning and we are leaving, as a group. In case some people
don't know it, one problem for most long time TL'ers is in the morning
when he/she tries to round up the group for a rap session only to discover
that so-and-so left 10 minutes ago. Of course, for lack of a better word,
"permissioned", departures are another story.
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